This is fucking sad, my heart goes out to these amazing women and girls who deserved so much better

My heart breaks for these women who had their opportunities snatched by these men.

But you know what pisses me off more than anything? Is that we all know a trans man (female) would not get embraced like this in male sports. I’m willing to bet the women bite their tongues and feel compelled to accept trans women into their sports. Where as men would be the first to bully and complain about a trans men slowing the team down.

The answer is not women calling ourselves men taking t to compete in men’s sports.  

^ sadly we’d still lose because women on testosterone still can’t measure up against men’s natural advantage –

Transwomen on HRT for a given period, usually 6 to 9 months, cease to maintain the majority, if not all, of their athletic prowess one could attribute to testosterone. That’s in fact entirely the point of androgen-suppressant medication; to diminish and negate its effects.

Provided that was done, all I can see here is people being bitter because an athlete was in the wrong demographic while winning. I recall australia getting upset over that too once.

Fuck this transphobic bullshit.

They’re women. Competing in women’s sports.


Personally I think there should be some middle ground. It’s proven that men are biologically predisposed to be stronger/faster than women (that’s not sexist, it’s science). Like banny said, after a while on HRT, transwomen lose almost if not all of the advantages being biologically male gave them. Therefore, I think it’s reasonable to require that trans athletes (or at least trans-female athletes) be on HRT for long enough that they lose most or all of the advantages biology gave them. Then it’d be fair, and nobody would be able to (reasonably) complain.

To be clear, I was referring to the garbage in the OP as transphobic, not what Banny said.

I still think Banny’s wrong, though.

The average cis man is slightly stronger than the average cis woman, that is not the same thing as any given cis man (or trans woman) being stronger than any given cis woman. There really isn’t any reason (other than transmisogyny) to expect that a trans woman–even without HRT–is automatically going to be the strongest person on her team.

I mean, I’m a trans woman, and I guarantee that any of these women’s cis teammates or opponents could kick my ass at literally any sport they chose.

And this is where I have to do the thing but in the opposite direction I guess…

Testosterone enhances the ability for muscles to grow, build, and provide strength for them. Large numbers means greater capacity for muscle mass, density, and strength. In absolute terms, the strongest man will always win out over the strongest woman if all else is equal. Higher ceiling.

This is relevant when we talk about transwomen whom are not on HRT for long enough for their androgen to be reasonably suppressed. They end up gaining more muscle more quickly than their cis counterparts and get more out of strength and cardio training.

While, yes, they could “kick [your] ass”, in the world of athletics the abilities of the average don’t matter. This specific demographic, athletes, has its own variables to account for and thus doesn’t generalize beyond itself terribly well. So it says nothing for the population at large, but in a competitive setting it does make a difference.

This isn’t a matter of transmisogyny, it’s facts of biology. Once their androgen is sufficiently suppressed there’s no reason not to allow them, but beforehand it’s basically permitting steroids produced internally.

Counterargument: Cis women also vary in strength, and in how much testosterone their bodies produce. We don’t bar unusually strong cis women from competing–quite the opposite, we encourage them! And likewise we don’t measure how much testosterone cis women have before we let them compete.

A trans woman, pre HRT, is a woman whose body produces an unusually large amount of testosterone–and the established precedent is that that’s irrelevant. As long as any advantages she has are natural, there’s no reason not to let her compete.

They are not natural for her demographic. Moreover, the amount isn’t unusually large except in women’s division athletic teams. You understand how this is difficult to justify, right?

We don’t bar the exceptionally capable. But there is a distinct difference between exceptionally capable and the capacity of someone like this. Again, it’s the difference of permitting one demographic to use steroids while another cannot. Simple fairness. That’s all we’re looking for here.

If she is in the demographic, and it is natural for her, how is it not natural for her demographic?

I don’t want to mischaracterize your arguments, but it really seems to me like you’re saying that trans women aren’t really women, that we should only be counted as women in certain situations if we meet certain criteria.

I’m arguing that trans women are women, therefore anything true about any trans woman is true of at least one woman. Anything that is natural for a trans woman is natural for a woman. Her capabilities are the capabilities of a woman.

So if we’re going to divide sports by gender, the fair thing to do is to let her participate freely in women’s sports, because she’s a woman. She’s not on steroids; she is herself.

I’m taking an especially hard line on this because I’ve literally seen people argue exactly the opposite–that trans women who have taken HRT and had gender affirmation surgery shouldn’t be allowed to compete in sports at all, because they’ve been “artificially altered.” That’s bullshit, too–but if you put your argument and this argument together, you end up with trans women being barred from sports entirely.

Because, like it or not, transwomen are their own demographic. In normal life this doesn’t make a whit of difference for most things. I want to stress that. In normal life it doesn’t make a whit of difference.

The only criteria is having hormonal levels within the typical boundaries of the other participants. Not literally three standard deviations above it. Again, like how we check Olympians for performance enhancers. Nothing to do with saying they’re not women, nothing at all and I am absolutely do not hold that stance (like jesus i cant believe i had to say that). But when someone performs atypically in one category and typically in another, that isn’t fair to the category they’re atypical in. This is what I mean by fairness.

The trouble is that while, yes, neurologically transwomen are women, until HRT is initiated for a sufficient course the biological markers of womanhood are simply not present in enough levels to make your point stand. The distinction is drawn; she is herself, but in the same way whatshisface the swimmer guy was himself. And while the commission ultimately decided whatshisface’s stuff was just really lucky genetics and nothing could be done, in this case something can be done. Something the overwhelming majority of trans individuals would (and should, but that’s another argument) be doing anyway. So enforcing it isn’t even a big deal.

Thankfully I have not made this “artificially altered” argument anywhere and similarly find it bullshit. In a contest where that would matter – say, beauty conrtests – trans individuals have been allowed to participate freely anyway. So while I understand your fears here, nobody, I think, honestly puts that argument together and if they did I’d oppose them for the stranglehold you rightly pointed out.

the biological markers of womanhood 

If trans women are women, which they are, then their biological markers are the biological markers of womanhood.

The only criteria is having hormonal levels within the typical boundaries of the other participants. 

Why? If these are women’s teams, as opposed to cis women’s teams, then why are only cis women being used to determine what’s “typical”?

Something the overwhelming majority of trans individuals would (and should, but that’s another argument) be doing anyway. 

Who the fuck are you to decide that? HRT is an individual’s own choice about their own body. Some trans women choose never to do it; that does not make them any less women.